White Sands, Koh Chang less than two years ago.
Bamboo huts - a travellers' paradise lost.
And today... recognise the far tree from the first picture?
Room for a sexagenarian to swing his hammock.
The same spot last year, the huts all gone.
My coconut trees encased in concrete.
KC Grande resort from above. Nicely done but far too big.
Well padded holiday makers from another world.
We’ve just got back to our Surin village after a short holiday on the island of Koh Chang which gives me the chance to go on a bit about the current state of Thai tourism.
The village is a good place to avoid Christmas so we’re home again after a nine hour drive. The worst bit about leaving the island was saying goodbye to my daughter Anna and son-in-law Will who’d met up with us there for a short winter holiday.
They’ve visited us many times in Thailand but this time it wasn’t exactly easy for them. First of all it proved almost impossible to book a hotel from London as the Koh Chang resorts repeatedly told the booking agencies they were full and had no rooms. Finally they ended up staying at the new 160 room KC Grande Resort on White Sands Beach which proved to be almost empty of visitors.
The holiday was a cliff hanger too and they nearly cancelled when a mob of political demonstrators invaded and closed Bangkok’s Suvarnabhumi airport a few weeks before. Then at the last moment the protests came to an end and they were finally able to fly.
Thai tourism now looks pretty sick after this and it desperately needs a shot in the arm. With recession engulfing the world, long haul travel is an unnecessary luxury, added to which the strong baht now makes holidays here much more expensive. While I’ve been used to around 70 baht to the pound in the last few years, Thomas Cook in Petersfield gave Anna and Will only fourty four baht to the pound. Our pizzas on White Sands Beach were excellent but they now cost no less than in Europe.
Instead of getting a shot in the arm though, Thai tourism has been repeatedly shot in the foot. The Thai military which controls airport security allowed ‘The Peoples’ Alliance for Democracy’, a well organized anti-democratic rent-a-mob to take over the airport which was closed for many days, trapping 350,000 foreign tourists in Thailand and causing many more inward cancellations.
Nothing could be worse for the reputation of Thai tourism than this debacle. While the tsunami was far more catastrophic in human terms, it only affected one small part of the country.
As if these disasters are not enough!
One of the great advantages of visiting Thailand is the visa waiver that many nationals enjoy on arrival…you get an immediate thirty day stamp at immigration which is a big incentive to easy travel. But now they’ve changed the rules yet again. If you arrive overland you’ll now only be given a fifteen day stay.
Bang, bang, the message is clear. We don’t want so many travelers here… go to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos instead. They’re far more welcoming.
Koh Chang profited after the tsunami as it’s safe from risk within the Gulf of Thailand. It also welcomed many backpackers, being well placed on the overland route to Cambodia, but in the last few years I’ve seen the character of White Sands Beach change from a sleepy traveller’s town to a resort attracting older tourists for short holidays in the sun.
When Ben the protagonist of my novel, “Thai Girl” stayed on this beach in 2001 he predicted an ecological disaster and he was dead right. Bang, bang, they’ve turned the west side of the island into the usual grubby shambles of tacky stalls and huts spread out for mile after mile in headlong pursuit of the tourist dollar. Thailand is incapable of controlling informal development even here on the fringes of a national park and they’ve destroyed much of the natural environment that is the chief attraction for many visitors. The sea and mountains are still there but much has been lost in a short time even as boom turns to bust.
A few years ago the Thaksin government proposed reserving Koh Chang for up market tourism, a good idea so long as the rest of the island isn’t ruined by low grade developments. In that light the recent expansion of Anna and Will’s KC Grande resort could be justified but I’m sad at what’s been lost in the process.
In my recent book, “My Thai Girl and I”, I describe how we stayed in one of the old bamboo huts at KC Grande for my sixtieth birthday and I’m still not yet sixty two. The next time we visited Koh Chang the huts had all gone and construction of the new resort was well under way. Now it’s open for business though some of the bar areas are still not quite complete. Thai-Chinese owned and partly financed by Swedish interests promoting package tourism, I’m told, it has been planned and finished to a very high standard indeed.
I wish them well and hope that their enterprise brings employment and benefit to ordinary people here, but I also wish the resort wasn’t so big and that it hadn’t replaced my bamboo huts with steel and concrete and the brutal sea wall that now blights the beach front. The coconut trees from which I used to sling my hammock have either been chopped down or embedded in concrete.
The resort has opened at a terrible time. Christmas and New Year season will be busy but who knows what will happen after that. Thai tourism really doesn’t need any more shocks.
I’m unable to verify the story but this is what I’ve just been told by a usually reliable source. In Thailand the foreshore is vested in the Crown and is controlled by the military for strategic reasons. On Koh Chang the generals have been rattling sabres saying that the beach resort developments are illegal and that they must all be closed and cleared away. Meetings are now being held and heavy negotiations are in progress.
So does this mean, bang bang, that tourism on Koh Chang will be decimated or that all resorts will be moved back from the beach?
Well, no actually… this is Thailand, where nothing is ever what it seems.
In Buddhist terms all of human striving is illusory, impermanent and unsatisfactory. Three prime ministers in three months isn’t bad going but the new cabinet ministers are wearing impressive white uniforms and keep smiling benignly. Next year the visa rules will change again and the beaches on Koh Chang will look much the same as they do today. The pace of development will slow a little because of recession but we’ll never know what was resolved with the military, though we may well speculate.
The losers from the tourist recession will as always be the little people… the ones selling tee shirts from a tiny stall on the street, the cooks and cleaners who’ll lose their jobs, but’s that’s just how it always is.
Koh Chang is still wonderful though. After we’ve done what we have to do here in the village, we’re planning to head back there for the New Year. A round trip’s only fifteen hours driving after all and as an added bonus the ferry service is the best in the world.
Where else do they charge only a few dollars a head while the car goes on for free?
Andrew Hicks The ‘Thai Girl’ Blog December 2008
46 comments:
The 15 day 'limited' entry permit only applies to person(s) who are re-entering the Kingdom at a border entry point within a 30 day period of last departure, and 'as always' its subject to the whim of the immigration officer.
Personally I dont think its a problem, it brings Thai immigration inline with other Asian countries, and hopefully will force a few more of the "cheap charlies" to move on.
Its not hard to get a visa to stay in Thailand if you have a legitimate reason, just like nearly every other developed country, if however people simply want to live a nomadic lifestyle with little or no money and give little to the Thai economy in general then why should Thai people allow anyone to stay, they surely dont have this luxury!
Andrew,
These changes to the pristine beauty of the Thai environment are as inevitable as the changes wrought to Thai culture by hundreds of thousands of western men going to Thailand to get Thai sex partners, girlfriends and wives. Because we can all get in and out of aeroplanes the way we used to get in and out of taxis the rate of decline of cultural identity and of environmental sanctity will continue unabated. Put simply human beings will for the most part do whatever they have the opportunity to do; if that is to make lots of money by putting up hotel developments or if it is to go Thailand to get a woman they wouldn't be able to dream about in their country of origin is one and the same. The only thing that will stop this opportunistic behaviour is government legislation - in Asia; unlikely to happen.
Pauline
@ Pauline
... it is to go Thailand to get a woman they wouldn't be able to dream about in their country of origin
... hundreds of thousands of western men going to Thailand to get Thai sex partners, girlfriends and wives
These whiney comments of Pauline above are truly hateful and racist motivated, coming fresh out of the mouth of a bitter lonely frustrated US-feminist, who envies the fortune of Caucasian men living with Asian women.
We cannot blame her, as she is obviously only an American girl.
It's up to the gentleman next door to decide, who will be his future wife. Asian or not, if you like it or not, it's not your business, sorry.
Your comments, Pauline, are disgusting.
Pauline is the reason the people travel 1000s of miles to meet a nice person in a different country to leave people like you in your own country
Llloyd,
I didn't realise the 15 day rule applied only to overland RE-ENTRY into Thailand. So you can come into Thailand overland from Poipet say and still get 30 days?
I am on Koh Chang at the moment and have been discussing their visa problems with a couple of Brits who are having a two month holiday. The fifteen day thing is really messing them up, partly because they are confused as to the new rules.
Thailand's tourist advantage was that it was more generous in giving visas than its competing neighbours but that advantage is now cut back.
Yes, it is embarassing how hard it is for Thais to get into UK say, but still Thailand needs its western tourists. There are other better ways of stopping illegal working and reducing the number of murky characters than being less generous with the visa waiver.
Though it's a fact that most of Thai visa policy is simply aimed at raising money rather than implementing immigration policy. (This view comes from a high-up in Thai immigration!)
Pauline, there's a lot of truth in your cynical view of human nature, though the stuff about Asian women is a bit of tangential to environmental issues!
Yes, commercial greed will ride rough shod over any consideration of the environment, but developed societies that operate according to the rule of law are able to manage places of natural beauty and protect them from the ravages of inappropriate development. Thailand hasn't got there yet but it is for Thais to campaign against this sort of selfishness.
Grassroots opinion can make a difference over time and there are green NGOs here who do good work. It shouldn't be seen as a lost cause.
But whoever said you're American??!!
Andrew
Pauline, you need to get a life! Yohan, you are sooooooo right! I think that maybe Pauline is having trouble finding a man and I can understand why!!!!
Pauline said: >> The only thing that will stop this opportunistic behaviour is government legislation.<<
Pauline, are you suggesting that it be made illegal for western men to find Thai sex partners, girlfriends and wives?
It is amazing that with western women the fault is always with men. How bout some self-examination? I'm sure you'll say those western men are simply out to oppress those poor Thai women and take advantage of them. But have you stopped for a second to think about why western men would run thousands of miles away from western women?
And if we western men are the beings you think we are, you should be thanking your lucky stars that we've lost interest in you. I highly doubt that you have truly altruistic feelings for Thai women. It is much more likely that you resent western men have options other than western women.
Pauline, your scorn and seeming hatred toward Western men going to Thailand to find a suitable wife is laughable. A woman that men "dream of" is a woman who respects her man, not a "woman" who bitches, nags, makes false claims, divorces at a whim because she is stuck with a child's mind, etc. Sadly, the former example of a woman is very rare in the Western/feminized world, and the latter is far too common.
You want to know why Western men go to eastern Asia (Japan, Thailand, China, etc.) to find a wife? The women there aren't "womyn" like you.
@Pauline:
"or if it is to go Thailand to get a woman they wouldn't be able to dream about in their country of origin"
You're right, it's impossible for any man to find a nice, supportive, respectful, and sane woman in the Western world. Meanwhile, Asia is full of them.
You ding-bats and your feminist ideology have turned yourselves into the most loathed women on the planet. You are unsuitable to be wives or mothers or even friends. Any real man won't have anything to do with you and thats your own fault.
"The only thing that will stop this opportunistic behaviour is government legislation - in Asia; unlikely to happen."
Spoken like a true Marxist/feminist/Fascist. The government must expand and use its power to control and subdue these men from freely associating with and marrying whoever they want! To hell with the constitution and their rights!
What you should be doing is considering what makes normal men run 1000's of miles away from YOU and your kind. Hell, I'd love to be with a western woman. Just not in their current mentally deranged state.
I know I sure won't have an American woman. Though, I didn't go to Thailand, but went to Ukraine. Foreign women want a relationship, and American women only want one night stands. America women seem like they're trying to become what they have been deceived by the media as men being. Where as, foreign women outside of the US/Canada, and especially in non-westernized countries, actually like being nice to men. American women are the most sexist pigs to ever walk the Earth.
I won't pay, I won't play, I won't conform.
American woman, just try to make me
conform.
I won't
If America is such a "free country",
then why do you keep tightening your
grip only to see me slip thru your fingers?
This is why I am handicapped, because
of you.
Feminism has made me a little boy
and not a man.
Because of feminism, I will not get married,
I will not "settle down", and I will most
deninfufsfsnsuyly not "grow up"
So go eat your boogers.
Listen to the boys Pauline, guys like Yohan have shoveled you decades of life experience based on unbiased truth.
Pauline should be looking at the environmental and moral decay in her own country before spouting her feminist drivel on things she knows little about.
Pauline said:
" 'The only thing that will stop this opportunistic behaviour is government legislation - in Asia; unlikely to happen.' "
Speaking of opportunistic, does she ever consider the opportunism that women routinely engage in when they decide to divorce a man for no other purpose than to unjustly enrich themselves - by taking half of everything he's ever worked for?
And what about the pro-feminist, pro-female family courts and other institutions that have turned men into slaves and walking wallets? And imprisons them if they dare to resist such rank injustice?
Isn't that equally odious - and - here comes that word again - opportunistic?
Oh, and let's not forget the ever-bubbling stew of anti-male bias and male-bashing that men have to live in every day. Feminists have created this kind of social milieu, and women have benefited hugely from it. Isn't that opportunistic too?
Funny how women insist that they're 'strong, independent, empowered grrls', but run to Big Daddy Government for help in filching mens' wealth because they're too frigging lazy to work and earn their own wealth.
No wonder why men want to escape the Kafkaesque world that the West has become, and particularly the women who populate it.
And that is what has got women like Pauline really scared - no more money coming in that hasn't been earned, because the men have all left. Or are leaving.
Plus there's the reality that foreign women represent an entity that spoiled, bratty, entitlement-mentality infected Western women can't compete with.
At least in Thailand and other similar locales, men actually stand a chance of being treated with fairness and dignity. In the West, they don't.
Wow!!!
First of all, I'm not sure that Pauline's American.
Personally as a Brit I don't feel that British society has the anti-male bias that has been so vividly described by the above comments. Divorced British males sometimes feel aggrieved but not like their American counterparts, it seems.
Perhaps our divorce laws are more balanced as between the sexes. I have my own experience of British divorce and have come out of it with no bitterness at all.
I never really know what 'feminism' is other than a dirty word. If it means that both sexes should be treated as being as equal as possible and that they should be able to find happiness without being stereoptyped as to their role in life, then surely we must all agree with that.
The child bearing role of women and the earlier loss of fertility does mean that there are real differences between the sexes that cannot be wished away though. This perhaps leads to the fact that society allows older western males to find younger Asian wives, while this opportunity is much less available to western women.
I find myself married in Thailand because partly as an antidote to the loneliness I might have suffered back home. Nonetheless,I admit that there are many older single females there though who my live a lonely life wishing to find a partner.
It now strikes me that for every older western male who marries east as I have done, that is one less who could have provided companionship for a lady back home. Perhaps a lonely woman in ths situation might well feel bitter at this strange international trade in farang husbands that diminishes their chances of companionship even more.
Pauline clearly has strong views and I wonder what her line really is. I'm not sure she deserves the venom that she has received.
Unless of course all western women are indeed an unmitigated disaster!
Andrew.
"I never really know what 'feminism' is other than a dirty word. If it means that both sexes should be treated as being as equal as possible and that they should be able to find happiness without being stereoptyped as to their role in life, then surely we must all agree with that."
That'd be nice if that were what it meant. They say that's what it means, but what they do does not reflect that. It's more of a government funded "female supremecist" movement that pushes to give women every advantage they can while demonizing and disadvantaging men whenever possible. They use the sick idea that all men are eternal oppressors and all women are eternal victims as an excuse for their war on heterosexual men and women.
Theres a lot more to it but that's some of the basics.
@ Andrew
.....for every older western male who marries east as I have done, that is one less who could have provided companionship for a lady back home.
This assumption is wrong. There is no indication that Western men are willing to replace their Asian wife with a lady back home. It's not the choice Asian woman /or UK/EU/US women, there is also the choice to remain single.
Perhaps a lonely woman in this situation might well feel bitter at this strange international trade in farang husbands that diminishes their chances of companionship even more.
Perhaps a lonely Western woman should look into a mirror and should ask herself, why Western men in such a considerable number are ignoring her presence next door and get on a plane to somewhere in Asia or Latin America.
Pauline is blaming only Western men, but she should better blame herself for her loneliness.
"I never really know what 'feminism' is other than a dirty word. If it means that both sexes should be treated as being as equal as possible and that they should be able to find happiness without being stereoptyped as to their role in life, then surely we must all agree with that."
That'd be nice if that were what it meant. They say that's what it means, but what they do does not reflect that. It's more of a government funded "female supremecist" movement that pushes to give women every advantage they can while demonizing and disadvantaging men whenever possible. They use the sick idea that all men are eternal oppressors and all women are eternal victims as an excuse for their war on heterosexual men and women.
Theres a lot more to it but that's some of the basics.
"I never really know what 'feminism' is other than a dirty word. If it means that both sexes should be treated as being as equal as possible and that they should be able to find happiness without being stereoptyped as to their role in life, then surely we must all agree with that."
That'd be nice if that were what it meant. They say that's what it means, but what they do does not reflect that. It's more of a government funded "female supremecist" movement that pushes to give women every advantage they can while demonizing and disadvantaging men whenever possible. They use the sick idea that all men are eternal oppressors and all women are eternal victims as an excuse for their war on heterosexual men and women.
Theres a lot more to it but that's some of the basics.
OY!
Sorry man! My web browser glitched and posted some double-posts.
Better restart it...
Phew! I am still incredulous at the amount of aggrressive poisonous trajectiles headed my way as I popped my head over the parapet regarding these interesting issues.
However, sometimes things need to be said and obviously my way of looking at things is different from this Greek chorus of male opinion. All I can tell you is what I have experienced and what I have seen and why I think the way I do.
I have lived and worked in three Asian countries and during that time I noticed that, although there were many young and not so young Western men living with Asian women, I never saw an older Western woman living with a younger Asian man. The few examples of cross-cultural marriages between a Western woman and an Asian man began when they were both in their twenties. I realised then that, as an older white woman from a developed country I did not have the same opportunity to form a relationship with an Asian man of any age as my the counterpart, the white Western male, did.That was not to whine - simply to state a fact.
To be left alone without companionship in our materialistic, time poor, profits driven countries of the West is horrible for both older men and older women. To deal with a marriage that has ended, an empty nest or the loss of a job and career is emotionally devastating and socially isolating. But as I have pointed out older white Western men do have an alternative. They can go to Asia, South America, Eastern Europe, Russia and Africa to get a wife who is often twenty or thirty years younger than them. Older Western women do not have this choice.
When I was a child my parents brought me to think that I had exacly the same opportunities as my brother. It wasn't about opportunities; it was about choices. I have to say at this end of my life that they were wrong. There are huge inbalances of power and opportunity between the sexes in both develped countries and undeveloped countries and this is one of them. Why so? Probably because of the biological imperatives related to reproduction and the perpetuation of the species. A woman's marketability ends with her loss of fertility. A man can sire a child in his fifties, sixties, seventies and eighties - therefore he is still marketable in dating circles especially if he has money. And herein lies another inbalance in the relationships of men from a developed country and women from an undeveloped country. If you were a woman from grinding poverty and back-breaking work from dawn to dusk with little reward at the end and a rich Westerner came along to transform your life and your family's life with it, what would you do? Immediately you have access to all those material desirables such as beautiful big house, air-conditioning, a car, modern appliances and all the conveniences you had ever dreamt about. This is about power relationships. A white Western male has the most power and privilege of any group on the face of the planet - well ahead of white Western women and light years ahead of women from undeveloped countries. You are lucky, blessed indeed!
Pauline
Pauline: I have lived and worked in three Asian countries ...
..If you were a woman from grinding poverty and back-breaking work from dawn to dusk with little reward at the end and a rich Westerner came along to transform your life and your family's life with it, what would you do? Immediately you have access to all those material desirables such as beautiful big house, air-conditioning, a car, modern appliances and all the conveniences you had ever dreamt about.
@ Pauline
You are claiming you were living in 3 Asian countries.
May I ask about which 3 Asian countries you are talking?
Do you really think, all Western men are rich and all Asian girls are living in poverty?
About myself, an European man, I never had a big beautiful house with aircon, I had no car and no modern appliances in my little room.
From where should all this money come from for a young Western man to buy such property and all these expensive items?
Do you really think, every Western man is born to be rich????
You did not answer the question WHY Western men are looking for Asian women.
I will answer this question for you. I was treated by young Western women like shit while I was a young rather poor-off Western man.
- And now, as an old Western man living in Japan I do not need old Western women anymore, because I am married since 32 years with an Asian wife.
Pauline: A white Western male has the most power and privilege of any group on the face of the planet...
@ Pauline
Oh yes, Pauline, good night.
It's getting ridiculous.
Pauline, I'm one of those guys who is looking for an Asian wife. I'm a caucasian Aussie, 40 years old and have preferred Asian women since I was a teenager.
Why? Well here's some characteristics I'm looking for in a wife -:
-Femininity
-Non smoker
-Light drinker
-No tattoos
-Takes care of her health and appearance
-Little or no sexual experience
-Intelligent
-Respect for family values
-Hard working
-Tolerant, compassionate, courteous
From my experience, 99% of western women under 40 (products of feminism) do not have these qualities. Asian women, especially those from more traditional cultures, usually do.
Furthermore, I'm what you might call a "nice-guy". Well educated, financially comfortable, hardworking, intelligent, reserved, respectful, honourable. In short, western women find me quite boring.
Well, when I went to Ukraine to find a wife, I could have easily had an 18 year old, but instead, I only saw the 30 year olds, and I was 33. So it isn't necessarily about younger, younger, younger, as Paulina keeps saying. It's mostly about finding a woman who is at least nice. Not only that, but westernized women don't want us men anyway. They would rather stay alone for as many years as they can, because that's the trend. I have found that Eastern European women don't do this non-sense. So if I see a westernized woman who ends up alone, I frankly, couldn't care less. They brought it on themselves. In every age group below 35, there are more men than women. In fact, in the States, between the ages of 20-34, there are actually 1 million more men than women! This is when women should settle down, as they are in demand, demographically speaking, and not to mention, in their prime. But instead, they wait until the gender ratio shifts to men's favor, and women have lost most of their looks, and men have gained their looks, so then men are in demand. So every woman who ends up alone, absolutely deserves it. Maybe you can beg for dates with men, just like men did you women at age 20. What goes around comes around.
Pauline claims that older Western males have alternatives for companionship with these Asian women, while older Western women do have have those same alternatives with Asian men. Though I definitely agree with her on this, she fails to ask herself a very important question: "why aren't the men interested in a Western female in the first place?"
Having visited or resided in quite a few countries myself I think I know the answer: Western females, especially those from the U.K. and the U.S., have a reputation for being cold, shrill, selfish, ball-busting bitches. Those aren't my words, mind you; I'm merely relaying the opinions of more than just a few of the men I've befriended in my travels.
The other side of this coin could also be true: these men aren't chasing Thai beauties because no Western woman would have them; the Western male is there because he wants nothing whatsoever to do with his own women, just as many of his foreign counterparts aren't interested in them.
It's very possible that Pauline hasn't asked herself this question because she's afraid of the likely answer: women like her are basically chasing their men into the arms of their admittedly more feminine counterparts overseas. You can't keep busting mens' chops in home country then complain when they disengage and flee to greener pastures.
@Pauline: You're "incredulous" that a "Greek chorus" of men have responded negatively to your first post? Gee, could it have something to do with the "poisonous trajectiles" that you fired?
Or, that a "Greek chorus" of women such as yourself continue to serve up the same stereotypes and feminist dogma, that quite frankly, are only fit for printing on toilet paper for me to wipe my rear end on!
OzPaul
Pauline,
You're a typical, feminazi, Western woman-sheesh! Wah, wah, wah, men don't want me; it's their fault-waaaaaahhhhh! You never, ever, ever asked yourself this one, important question: why are men in my home country traveling THOUSANDS of kilometers away to find a wife? Why are men in my home country SPURNING me?! Why can my countrymen, when posted in the same Asian countries, have no problem finding a woman, yet local men avoid me like AIDS?! Could it be because you don't even offer the rudiments a decent wife would offer, such as being sane, pleasant, and-gasp-reasonable?! Nah, it can't be that; it can't be anything wrong with you, Darlin'. Why, you're a divine, righteous Goddess-not! You're perfect-not! You've been fed this bullshit all your life, and you believe it.
Gee, if I were forced to pick between a man-hating, ball busting, intolerant, inflexible, rude, Western bitch, vs. a kind, pleasant, smart, sane, reasonable, not to mention cute, Asian girl for a wife, guess who I'm going to pick? Guess! Hint: it won't be the ball-busting, man hating bitch from hell that I grew up with back home!
You know what, Pauline? Since you're so repulsive to men (both your countrymen and the locals in the Asian country to which you're posted), since you and your Western sisters are international horrors, why don't you do yourself a favor? Get some sex toys; get some batteries; then, get a cat or two for company; finally, you can LIKE it!! We don't want you obnoxious, arrogant, stuck up, disease ridden, man-hating skanks from back home! We don't want you! That's okay, because a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, right?
Before I close, Darlin', you should have thought about these things back when you were young, hot, and in demand back in your 20s; you should have thought about this before it became an issue. Rather than be grateful that good guys hit on you over the years, you CRUELLY rejected us for sport, and laughed at us and about us with your friends! You smashed our hearts for sport! You didn't give a damn that we were fellow human beings, not the sub human turds you feminazi bitches think men are. You called us boring; we weren't exciting enough; we 'liked you too much'; and I could go on, but then I'll get really angry! Rather, you took up with bad boys over the years. They fucked you and chucked you like the worthless whore you are, and now you wonder where all the good men went. Here's a hint, Sweet Pee: we're avoiding you, you stupid, heartless, thoughtless, arrogant, man hating bitch! You didn't want us, so we went out and found someone who actually did-what a concept! You exercised your right to blow us off back when we wanted you; now, we're exercising our right to return the favor. Deal with it.
I'm out of here. You didn't want us when we wanted you, and that's okay. You loudly and proudly proclaimed it's your body, and your choice; you'd sleep with whoever you wanted to, whenever you wanted to-fine. You forgot about the part that we men have rights too. We have the right to reject your sorry, used up, disease ridden ass! What's more, we're going to exercise that right! You don't like it? Tough shit, Bitch! You didn't want us, so we found someone who did. Deal with it; while you're at it, enjoy your toys and your cats. Good night, you stupid bitch...
MarkyMark
Pauline seems to be the representative of all women that are ignored and lonely..
Dear oh dear..
Men are looking for reasonable companionship and they find it Asian countries that are not influenced by the feminised western tramps and attention whores mentality that we see and read about so often. Apart from their privileged princess attitude which kicks in at birth these narcissistic females are not worth knowing let alone marrying..
Hence those guys trot of to Asia to find some semblance of what women were before feminism corrupted them. Best of luck to them..
Amazing stuff!
Some interesting thoughts as well as the abuse.
Even if the invective is justified, is it appropriately aimed at Pauline? Whatever did she say wrong?
She talked about the inevitability of humans doing what they have the opportunity to do and that in consequence western men will go to Thailand to find sex partners, girlfriends and wives that they wouldn't dream of getting in their own countries.
She notes as a fact that western men invariably go with younger Asian women but that as an older western woman she does not have this opportunity. Gender equality can never be achieved because patterns of reproduction and fertility are different between the sexes. Loneliness in older age is not a problem for the western male as his relative wealth makes him a privileged group when seeking a woman in a poorer country such as Thailand but this makes her chances worse for her.
I am not sure that these opinions justify the abusive comments directed at Pauline. How do you know that she is a ghastly feminist bitch?
In many ways she's making the point that nobody wants the older woman, especially if there's a slinky young Asian girl to be had instead. Perhaps she's on the shelf just because she's older and not because she's what you've said she is.
The better test is to ask which you would choose... an Asian woman or a western woman of exactly the same age.
Pauline is talking about her inability to compete because of her age. You are saying you simply prefer Asian women. Fair point but is the abuse really necessary?
Incidentally Thai women can sometimes be a bloody nightmare. All the sweet stuff you've said about them can be utter crap!
And finally putting my cards on the table, I am twice the age of my 'Thai girl' Cat. And she accepts me because I've lifted her and her family out of poverty. Just as Pauline said.
You can read all about it in my book, but I tell you it would have been a hell of a lot easier to have married a western woman of my own age. Perhaps like Pauline.
The gap is wide and marriage across the cultures can be hard work indeed.
Andrew Hicks
@ Andrew
Abuse? From whom please?
OK, let's read back to the FIRST posting of Pauline...
Pauline:
... hundreds of thousands of western men going to Thailand to get Thai sex partners, girlfriends and wives.
... is to go Thailand to get a woman they wouldn't be able to dream about in their country of origin ...
The only thing that will stop this opportunistic behaviour is government legislation - in Asia; unlikely to happen.
This is an open insult against every man from a Western country, who is married with an Asian wife, she is even calling for restrictions of international/interracial marriage by government legislation.
A Western woman posting such crap should expect angry replies in return.
With such an attitude against Western men, she should not be surprised that nobody wants any personal relationship with her.
Andrew: The better test is to ask which you would choose... an Asian woman or a western woman of exactly the same age.
OK, I will pass your test.
I was choosing a Japanese woman, who was a few months older than me - we were both 25 years old at that time and 32 years later we are still married.
If you are a young Western man and unable to offer big housing, modern appliances and an expensive car, then believe me out of my own personal experience, no young Western woman of same age will show a little understandings for your situation as a young man, who has not much to offer.
Why should she? It would be timewaste for her.
My choice was never Western wife X Asian wife, my choice was single X Asian wife.
Andrew: In many ways she's making the point that nobody wants the older woman, especially if there's a slinky young Asian girl to be had instead.
This is called competition, men are not obliged to run after older Caucasian women, men also have the right of choice.
Where has she been, when she was a young Western woman?
If she prefers to remain single while young, she should not be surprised to remain single while getting older.
Another reason, why men are not interested in older Caucasian women are family laws of Western countries.
Marriage with an older Western woman is too risky for the older Western man, as the wife is in a win-win position whatever she is doing.
If you know any advantage, even a tiny advantage, what an older Western man could gain out of a marriage with an older Western woman, please let me know.
If you have some savings/pension and you are an older Western man, better move to Thailand or any other Asian country.
Yohan
Ha – what a thread. I read the post and was going to share some nice experiences on Kho Chang over the holidays. It was Andrew that inspired me to check it out. Two thumbs up!! But to this thread I guess I’ll jump in.
I think there is a fundamental unfairness to the situation or inequity or whatever you want to call it without judgment. Men have an opportunity that doesn’t go the other way. It exists everywhere; it’s just really pronounced in a situation such as Thailand. As my (now ex) brother-in-law would say “why do 50 year old men have 25 year old girlfriends? Because they can.” It’s been this way for a long, long time – since about the time we climbed out of trees.
I agree with Andrew, (from the perspective of being married to a Thai who is in my case 30 years younger than me), that there are things I really miss about peer western women. There are some very dear women friends I stay close with and treasure those relationships. They don’t deserve all the trash talking. But fact is I really enjoy the fresh life that has come my way. Never would I have expected this. Is it “fair” the way things worked out – my ex living a reduced lifestyle and probably alone for her remaining years and me here with a young wife? That’s not for me to discern. And when changed circumstances gave me this opportunity I was happy to take it. Not because of bitterness looking back but at the adventure of the future.
Like so many things in this cruel world I wish somehow I could put it right. If only.
Derek
It does too go the other way. Women have been dating outside of their race for a long time, and on a far larger scale that American men have. But when men finally get around to doing it, then it's, "OMG! NO!" So it seems women think it's OK when they do t, but not OK when men do it.
Derek: ...there is a fundamental unfairness to the situation or inequity or whatever you want to call it without judgment. Men have an opportunity that doesn’t go the other way.
@ Derek
Sorry, but this is not correct.
I think you are misinformed or not sufficient informed about this subject, as it is not politically correct, anti-feminist and misogynistic to talk about it.
Of course Western women have an opportunity to go the other way - and they are doing exactly the same, what men are doing, and they are 100000s of them: They PAY for such social escort services.
For more information please study
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sex_tourism
and what about a yahoo-search regarding the same subject? You will be astonished to see how many related articles you will find.
Some of the comments above have been abusive... calling Pauline a 'stupid bitch' and worse is simple abuse.
It is abusive and ignorant because the writer knows virtually nothing about her. The abusive comments are sheer speculation and are not based on anything she has said.
My own viewpoint is that it's unhelpful to characterise individuals from different societies as if they are necessarily distinctive. Each person is an individual and should be approached as such.
If a western man fears western women will only want to marry him to get a free ride and enjoy his money, might that not equally be the case with say a Thai woman? Are they not interested in beng cared for? If the western woman is said to be a manipulative bitch, are Thai women never ever that way?
My own experience is that in later age I might have fallen for a woman of any race or nationality or age as the person I decide to love will be an individual and not just a category. As I said in my book, I ended up with a young Asian wife not because I wanted a young Asian wife but because I found it difficut to find a life in post-retirement UK whereas in Thailand I was never alone. The outcome was perhaps inevitable and the rest is history!
Marrying an older western woman would have had many advantages for me though. We would have been more compatible in every way in terms of age, culture, financial means and expectations, all of which would have made life much easier and less of a roller coaster. Those are simple facts.
I simply cannot relate to the negative characterisation of western women on this thread. That is not my British experience at all.
Nor do I think Asian women are the passive, doe-eyed door mats that some farang make them out to be. They can be very strong, a quality I very much like in a woman. Nor would I ever want to marry a door mat.
This is a sad, sad world. There is too much ageism, racism, hatred of other religions, of women of men.
We are all individuals with our own unique qualities, some good and some bad.
One such good quality is to find the best in individuals and not to condemn them out of hand because you think they represent something you hate.
If you hate without justification you do everyone a disservice.
Andrew
Andrew: If a western man fears western women will only want to marry him to get a free ride and enjoy his money, might that not equally be the case with say a Thai woman?
@ Andrew,
I might ask in return, if Western men fear Western women, why do Asian men not fear Asian women?
The difference is with the law, Western law is not Asian law.
The Western man does not fear to marry the Western woman, but he fears the Western feminist law execution (not the gender-neutral law itself!) in case of divorce - most family court decisions are favoring the woman, while in Asian countries I know (Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines), this is not the case.
It's not correct to compare EU with Thailand as you do as the economic difference is high, but you might compare UK with Japan.
Japan is not a cheap nation and as Japanese woman you are very free to leave your husband anytime with another man, but you cannot claim out of Japanese law from your cheated ex-husband alimony up to the end of your life and child-support (for your children, he is not even the biological father), you cannot expect to get a huge part of his savings and property.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555877/Court-ordered-payout-30-years-after-divorce.html
I recommend to read this article, link above, and see yourself what might happen to you in UK as an ex-husband.
This will never happen to you as a cheated ex-husband anywhere in Asia.
The Western divorce industry is a huge business for lawyers and ex-wives.
Andrew: Some of the comments above have been abusive... calling Pauline a 'stupid bitch'
If you read back, you will see, that it was Pauline, who was starting this discussion by calling for government legislation to crack down on Western men, who are looking for personal contacts with Thai females.
She said quite derogatory: 'it is to go Thailand to get a woman they wouldn't be able to dream about in their country of origin
Is this not shaming language against Western men, what else is it?
I try to remain polite, but other men obviously do not.
Well, Andrew, we reap what we sow.
Thanks Yohan for all your interesting comments from the perspective of your long and happy marriage to your Japanese wife.
I agree with you that western divorce laws are a source of much bitterness to men and perhaps the US is the worst. While British men may feel aggrieved sometimes as in the instance you give, the level of anger from Americans seems to be much higher.
My first marriage lasted about 25 years but as an equal opportunity marriage we both advanced our careers at the same pace. We thus earned equally throughout and when things came apart it was the obvious thing to do to split things equally down the middle as a clean break. This we did without any lawyers.
As I was early retired on grounds of ill health and my ex was still working, in principle I had a right to claim periodical payments from her but chose not to. Either party can of course claim from the other.
Incidentally, when Pauline said that legislation was necessary I am sure she was referring only to the environmental issues that was the subject of my post. She cannot possibly have meant that there should be laws to stop westerners marrying Asians.
Andrew Hicks
I come from one of the developed South East Asian countries hence I might have a slightly more individualistic view to the whole issue.
The trade of bartering exists everywhere.
So while I might find older men with younger women extremely distasteful and sometimes, even disgusting to my young eyes (I am under 24), I am also a pragmatic and realistic person as well. If is amicable and both parties are happy, why not.
I was born and raised in Asia, but I came from an affluent family who could afford extravagance most Asians or even middle-class westerners can afford.
My understanding of Western women is that like Western men, they too have gone astray.
The qualities of femininity you men lament about which they have supposedly lost has simply given way to a very emasculated generation of women who think with their even littler heads (I'm sure you know which area that resides).
I think the problem is that men want to have their cake and eat it too.
In the Western world, there are few men I've noticed, who value marriage as it ought to be in its idealised form - a meeting of two minds and souls as one.
These men are happy to spend their days cavorting around sleeping with loose Western women (who themselves have lost their traditional values and think that behaving in an exaggerated masculine manner would somehow empower them) and then seek to settle with a more passive, agreeable woman who will cater to his desire to lead a life of being served.
While I was brought up to be independent, I've always held true to the Asian values of respecting and loving your husband, supporting him and always running your decision past him out of respect for his role as a husband.
I've always been taught to save myself for the right man. I don't drink, smoke, indulge in unacceptable past times. I take good care of my body and mind, I'm a voracious reader and I enjoy a good deal of healthy hobbies such as writing, light sports volunteering, etc.
I'm no docile, doormat of a bimbo either - I possess a Masters degree in my field of study.
For me, its not about money. I HAVE money. Its not important to me because I'm a frugal woman and I don't need my husband to be rich - if he is poor or lower income I will happily live with him under his income.
I've been brought up to see the money I was raised with as an investment in my breeding and upbringing (i.e. worldly view, awareness of global issues, opinionated, etc) rather than a way to enjoy a luxurious life or marry a rich husband.
I actually paid for my own university courses and living by working 3 jobs - of course, 3 decent jobs. :)
Where is a man I can give myself to who hasn't already whored his way past his prime and decided he wants to settle down with a "nice girl" like me?
I'm not something you settle down with when you decide you want to retire.
Gateman above has a list he requires his spouse to have.
I have all that, except that I do not drink.
But at the risk of appearing to judge Gateman - I'm assuming at 40 years old this man has been married before and probably led the typical Australian male life of boozing and chasing girls at a young age.
Now he wants to settle down with girls like myself who have been brought up and ensured that they are untouched by the corruption of "feminazi" principles (my definition of the wrong kind of feminism is reverse sexism. I don't believe women deserve special rights. I do however, believe in equal opportunity for all regardless of sex, race or religion.) and the general corruption of the outside world.
I'm sorry if you're nothing like that Gateman, I was just going by age profiling, I hope you are not offended.
Are girls like me being short changed?
Is it wrong of me to want a man who possesses respectability, chastity (I'm not talking 40 year old virgin, but a man who is looking for a real marriage and not a lay and doesn't have 487927927 other notches below his belt.), honour, self-discipline and faith?
I'm sorry but even though I see all this taking place as transactions (old men with young women) I find it hard to really swallow or accept.
I don't think many of these girls are the good girl types like myself from good and respectable families as they usually ply the prostitution trade or at hopelessly illiterate.
I suppose I can find solace in the fact that these transactions take place between two people who themselves aren't exactly perfect (the guy is older and enjoyed his lot in life and seeking a young woman to take care of him and the girl a woman in the red light trade who is very damaged mentally and physically) but it won't take away the fact that while you might have some point in saying that your fellow white feminazi one night stand women deserve to be alone because they might be greedy or selfish I find it sad that my type of respectable girls are relegated to a stream of young men who aren't interested to settle down until they are done 'experimenting' with scores of loose women or used up men at the end or past their prime seeking to find youth to feed on.
Yohan. I read your comments and while you seem to be quite bitter about the whole 'white woman' thing I can empathise.
I know Japan's culture has a culture of women being passive to men, although Western culture seems to be changing that.
Japanese culture traditionally has treated women as inferior.
A way to understand a culture is to glimpse at their proverbs used to describe people, situations and events.
Some proverbs about women:
Danson johi - Men are treated with respect, women are treated as inferior.
Teppu shiro o katamuku -
A smart woman ruins the castle.
While proverbs of a man are:
Hashi ni mehana o tsuketemo otoko wa otoko - Even a seedy-looking man is a man.
It was only after world war 2 that women's roles became a little more diverse. But as you can see, not much different on its probable eventual path of Western type female emasculation.
Uchi no ny6b6 nya h&e ga aru - My wife has a mustache.
You might use Japan as a way to infer that Japan is somehow different (it is in terms of affluence, but the status of women is not unlike Thailand, except the obvious cultural differences) from the rest of impoverished Asian when it comes to women.
The only thing I can say is that I do believe your marriage to your wife is true and sincere because as a Gaijin, to be accepted into a Japanese family and Japanese society in general is incredibly difficult and you must have been quite the catch to be accepted like that.
Interesting to see this old thread coming up again.
Thanks to AsianGal for her comments.
I think, this person must be a Cantonese Chinese from Singapore.
Where is a man I can give myself to who hasn't already whored his way past his prime and decided he wants to settle down with a "nice girl" like me?
I'm not something you settle down with when you decide you want to retire.
I am not sure, what husband you expect in your life. Generally it is much more difficult for a man to find a girl, than for a girl to find a man in your age group if you are considering a long-term relationship.
Really, this cannot be a problem for an Asian woman.
I don't know what else I can say.
I wish you good luck.
Hi Yohan,
I am not Cantonese, but you're right on the dot about being from Singapore - quite the observant fellow you are.
"Generally it is much more difficult for a man to find a girl, than for a girl to find a man in your age group if you are considering a long-term relationship.
Really, this cannot be a problem for an Asian woman."
Well, I am not only considering a long term relationship - its hard to find a young man who has values similar to myself.
I have many male friends and let's just say I'm a little saddened that many young men - understandably - want to experiment and "test" the waters before finally wanting to 'settle' down.
Perhaps I'll meet a fellow who has decided he wants to save himself for a single woman he loves.
Maybe that is a very female sort of thinking.
As for your Asian woman comments - yes for an Asian woman it is easier to find a mate especially if she is young and has a more traditional mindset. But the type of men we attract - you'll find many of them are quite undesireable in terms of personality, traits and perhaps even perspective in life.
Most Asian women who are very modern, very "westernised" (the negative aspects not the positive ones) seems to have the best pickings and we traditional girls get the leftovers.
Its hard for me to explain. :)
I apologise if I was a little harsh in my rants about everything - I was upset over what was written here.
Thanks for your well wishes, I appreciate it. :)
But the type of men we attract - ...many of them are quite undesireable ...
Most Asian women who are very modern, very 'westernised'...have the best pickings ...traditional girls get the leftovers.
Its hard for me to explain.
This is not so difficult to explain, it's all about 'HOW to make the first contact' and 'how to present myself quickly as very important' - and if it's going wrong, never feel afraid or ashamed, just continue to do the same game with the next one.
This is 'Western style' dating.
The rhetoric is similar to an aggressive salesman, who wants you to buy quickly his merchandise.
I myself cannot do that, and therefore I was also a leftover.
I apologise if I was a little harsh in my rants about everything - I was upset over what was written here.
I do not see here any harsh rant from you.
If you want to compare, read the comments of Pauline in this thread.
Her rants will show you, that Asian women are by far nicer in the way they show up with their arguments.
Wow!
I am absolutely shocked and amazed at the way Pauline has been attacked yes, attacked, by you people! I haven't read all of the comments because, to be honest, I am disgusted with the few comments I have read.
I asked friends for suggestions for a topic which I could write a Linguisticsdissertation on for my university degree and this is what one of them said:
"How about writing about the way most men on the internet forums react when confronted with women speaking out on the still normal disadvantages they have to face in their lives. The 'felt anonymity' on the net seems to bring out typical reactions like calling women 'feminazis' etc ..."
I said that I hadn't come across this so they went on to post a link to this page saying:
"Just an example where a blog entry on environmental changes of a Thai island turns into an interesting discussion about the differences between Asian and 'western' women. Just start reading with the second comment by 'Pauline'. Afterwards you might know what I meant in my original post."
Andrew, I am appalled that this has been allowed to happen. Surely as the creator of this site you have an obligation to review what is being said. I realise that you can not be held responsible for the things that people say but this is a classic example of a woman being verbally attacked for having an opinion. I wonder what reaction this would have stirred up if it had been a man posting the comment. I know for a fact that it would have been VERY different!
You narrow minded bullies (not all of you I admit) have given me an example of how you are using your language to gain power over a woman and to degrade her. Thankfully Pauline is a VERY intellectual woman who can hold her own so I have no need to defend her, I merely want you all to look at the things that you have said to her and then hang your heads in shame! If you are REAL men you might find it in yourselves to apologise to her and think before you open your very large, opinionated mouths!
Andrew, I think you should have some kind of etiquette that people should follow if they wish to post on your site.
The 'felt anonymity' on the net seems to bring out typical reactions like calling women 'feminazis' etc ..."
Unlike you, Anonymous, I am NOT posting out of anonymity.
We reap what we sow. Next time please sign with your name.
About verbally attacked, you have to read back to see who was starting this rant, and this was Pauline in her comment # 2.
If you like it or not, it is up to the Western gentleman to decide, who will be his wife in future and if she is Asian or not.
This is not Pauline's business and not your business.
May I respond to th last two Comments?
I agree that anonymity on web foums is a feature that leads to unpleasantness that should at times be moderated. In this case, even though some posts became offensive,there has been an interesting debate to which I have added my views and especially as Pauline responded so effectively.
I am reluctant ever to censor comments and have never felt it ncessary to delete one. It would not advance gender equality to delete comments that expose their own bigotry.
Of course both the last two commentators are anonymous. I always post on web forums in my own name and have argued that debate would be improved if this were universal.
Please keep commenting though. Ths has been genuinely interesting and a discourse analysis sounds a good field of study.
Andrew Hicks
Hello Andrew met you at Andaman Buree December 2012 .Have been trying to purchase paper back copy of My Thai girl and I but in UK only Kindle editions available.Any advise ??
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